Music Page Controversies Resolved (for now)

[Webmaster Gabe]

Conclusions to the Music Page Controversies

The other day the CrunchyCo staff met to discuss some of the issues that have arisen since July 1st pertaining to the organization of the Music page and the artists featured there. After several hours of excessive bickering and heated debate, we have come to some conclusions to what appears to be two separate issues.

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ISSUE #1:

Lately there has been intense controversy and disagreement among members of CrunchyCo staff, as well as some confusion for some of our artists and viewers in regards to what was previously known as the "more music" page, a separate link at the bottom of the Music section that brought viewers to a list of "miscellaneous/experimental" CrunchyCo artists.

Sides of the argument have already been discussed and will not be repeated here. Here is a thread containing some information:
crunchyco.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=news&action=display&thread=168

CONCLUSION TO ISSUE #1:

CrunchyCo is and always will be a place open to a variety of music genres from our current chiptune craze to our more bizarre experimental works. However, due to the current interests of the majority of our audience, as well as organizational purposes, we have decided to include only certain artists on the main music page. These changes allow for the majority of our viewers to be met with a solid line-up of artists they will be interested in, and for the those who wish to venture deeper, discover something they may not be used to, and explore the full line-up of CrunchyCo artists, they may do so by visiting the second page.

HOW IT WAS: The music page had a subheader labeled "Chiptune" with select artists listed underneath. The rest of the artists were located on a separate page accessible by clicking on a link labeled "miscellaneous/experimental". This structure was flawed in many ways, one being that it gave the false impression that CrunchyCo is soley a chiptune label, and secondly it sort of discouraged the viewing of the artists on the "more" page.

HOW IT IS NOW: There are still two pages containing music artists, and the artists on them have not changed. The difference is that the subtitle "Chiptune" has been removed and replaced with the subtitle "Artist Showcase." In short, the front "artist showcase" music page is reserved for artists in which a significant portion of our viewers are visiting our site for. The rest of our supported artists are viewable on the second page through a very accessible link just below the main listing. The page is no longer labeled as "misc/experimental". The change removes genre barriers and any confusion over what type of label CrunchyCo is. It also opens the door for artists to move between the two pages depending on circumstances. Artists on the second page have the opportunity to move to the front page if they meet certain criteria. On the flipside, artists on the front page can be moved to the second page. In any case, we still value all Crunchyco artists no matter what page they are on.

HOW WE HOPE THINGS WILL CHANGE: Currently, the majority of traffic to our site is interested in artists of the electronic/chiptune variety, which is why our "Artist Showcase" is filled with pretty much only that. Our hope is that with time, our artist list and our audience will expand to include a wider variety of genres that are equally as popular as the chiptune artists. In order to do this, artists of other genres must stay active and dedicated, and CrunchyCo must actively seek out more artists of various genres, which we intend to do.

Even though the Music section is somewhat divided, we intend to represent all artists equally in the following ways:

*ALL artists will be listed in the music section of the Projects page.
*ALL new music releases will be announced and equally promoted to the best of our ability.
*ALL music merchandise will be equally listed in the shop page.

Here are some answers to questions you might have:
Q: What are the criteria for being in the main "Artist Showcase" listing?
A: The artist must be active, in other words producing music, playing shows, building a fanbase, and releasing music in collections either for free or for sale. In addition to those things, you must have a significantly recognizable fanbase that is being directed to CrunchyCo.com for the purpose of viewing your profile, downloading your songs, and browsing your available merchandise. We have not worked out the absolute solid guidelines yet, but that's the jist of it.

Q: Why aren't the other sections of CrunchyCo organized this way?
A: Right now Music is obviously the hottest area of CrunchyCo and contains far more content than the other sections. The other sections are not as popular yet, and do not contain nearly enough content to permit the use of a second page. If one of the other sections grow significantly enough, these same criteria would be followed.

Please post any other questions you may have regarding this issue so that they may be answered to the best of our ability.

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ISSUE 2:

Recently there has been heated discussion about certain music artists being dropped from CrunchyCo.

Sides of the argument have already been discussed and will not be repeated here. Here is a thread containing more information:
crunchyco.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=works&action=display&thread=104

CONCLUSION TO ISSUE #2:
As of now, no artists are being removed from CrunchyCo's current line-up. Artists will only be removed from CrunchyCo if one or more of the following occur:

1. They stop being active (i.e. they stop making music, stop playing shows, stop promoting themselves as an artist).

2. They consistently express an attitude that conflicts with our values, or displays a lack of care or disinterest in the workings of CrunchyCo.

3. They request to be removed.

Please post any questions you may have regarding this issue so that they may be answered to the best of our ability.

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Final word: My partner Aaron and I are fundamentally split on various matters regarding CrunchyCo, but despite some of our conflicting views, we do the best we can to come up with compromises that everyone can understand and hopefully be satisfied with. We hope that between the two of us, and with the input of our staff and viewers, we can put our different ideas together to consistently improve CrunchyCo for the better.

Feel free to ask questions and DISCUSS (not argue) the above issues. As of now the decisions made above are final and will remain as they are until circumstances dictate otherwise.

[Evan Joseph-Pinero]

I think, when the time comes, an archive artists page would be amazing.
Including, perhaps, then-unavailable tracks/albums/etc for download. Particularly for artists or musical projects that have stopped making music, rather than having been voluntarily or involuntarily dropped from CrunchyCo.

[beb]

I'm still speechless, very unhappy, and very very disappointing in Aaron's ideas, opinions, and the way he handled this situation.

But for now i will stop talking and let it be. I like the words you wrote above Gabe and I am glad. I only hope that things in the future will be more optimistic.

[Aaron Campion]

I never really noticed the "chiptune" heading of the previous version of the music page. Saying Chiptune is pretty incorrect especially since none of those artists are entirely chiptune; kghb has only a few chiptune songs, fighter x only has 1 chiptune release, wiklund's first two releases are not really chiptune, leeni's first album is acoustic only, only sabrepulses two newest releases only are chiptune. I think the artist showcase was a much more appropriate title for many reasons other than the occasional person who was too lazy to few the "other page" or "projects" page and may have been confused that the site was a "chiptune exclusive" web label.

As far as you brandon, being unhappy with my opinions and the way i've handled the situation, probably not the greatest assessment from someone who was only present for 20% of the meeting. But to be fair, i find your opinion of this whole matter to be a much more valuable one than the other staff members at the meeting and i really wish you would have expressed yourself more and stayed longer. Out of everyone that was arguing against me, i find you to be the least biased one (except for that you are in everyones hypo and the get haha). You are basically the only person that honestly enjoys the various genres across crunchyco's spectrum and also has a good understanding of music in general from years of being a musician.

Some of the other staff members, especially Lizzy and Coltan, claim to like and express strong feelings for their friends' bands Smuggling Chewbacca and Everyone's Hypocrite, although they coincidently do not like any other bands in any of the related genres to those bands, such as hardcore punk, metal, or grindcore. It is like someone who only likes Bob Marley, and decides to put a poster of him smoking a blunt on their wall. They really like what Bob Marley represents, but are what I would consider a poser, are not huge reggae fans, and do not have much of an opinion about anything related to reggae. Furthermore, Lizzy and Coltans inexperience of being musicians gives them not much of basis for critiquing and/or judging music. I don't even know if Coltan realizes Blur, a band he would consider one of the greatest bands of all time, has some of the most simplistic guitar, drums, vocals, and overall basic song structure of all time; even more so than Blink 182 in my opinion. Coltan went on to say that Everyone's Hypocrite is the best thing on CrunchyCo, which I find very biased. I dont even know how he can compare such completely different projects/genres such as Firebrand Boy and Leeni. Now dont get me wrong Gabe, I am not repeating previously discussed threads, I am just stating that next time we have a cruchyco meeting about the music section, we should include more of those who have a good understanding of music and legitimately enjoy every genre crunchyco has to offer. If I am wrong about this, Lizzy and Coltan please redeem yourselves and explain, for example, why Coltan who states that he hates anything metal and dislikes distorted guitar could enjoy Smugg and Hypo, two bands who both have ear piercing screaming vocals and loud distorted guitars. I can say that i legitimately enjoy all of crunchyco's genres:

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Hardcore Punk: I enjoy of course the Casualties, but I also own Everyone's Hypocrites biggest hardcore punk inspiration Nameless Danger's EP. As far as local bands go, i enjoy and own Throw it Out's EP, who of which is kind of parody weird punk band, also Olympia's Rocket Attack, and of course stuff like Mutilated Pork Guts.

Grindcore: Smuggling Chewbacca's biggest inspiration Anal Cunt, as well as Destroyer Destroyer, Robinson, Daughters, the Meat Shits, and so on..

Chiptune: Too many to name! Maru, USK, Bit Shifter, Rugar, Trash80, blah blah blah

Powerpop: I also enjoy some music related to Circles! I can dig Hellogoodbye, Represent, Select Start, stuff like that

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So anyways, moving on i think Gabe did miss one point about why the music page is divided. Having a separate page allows us to have a very important in my mind, introductory paragraph. Now, everything looks great about the music page, my only problem with the way that it looks is in the sentence linking the music page to the "more music page" Gabe threw in the word "valued". This really feels a bit awkward, almost as if we are overcompensating because we are embarrassed of the hidden section. Not only that, it is especially noticeable because none of the other links anywhere on the site have an adjective thrown in them. If the valued is going to stay, it is only fair to add stuff like "View complete list of FANTASTIC music projects" or "The SUPER INTERESTING crunchy compilation" or "View the AMAZING archive bands". It also is bad because we value everything on our site and people can read this in our "values and beliefs" it is not necessary to throw it in the title in some section that makes it look like we feel bad about it.

[beb]

"It is like someone who only likes Bob Marley, and decides to put a poster of him smoking a blunt on their wall."

haha, i like that a lot. not the stuff around it . . . but that right there was really good.

[Evan Joseph-Pinero]

I think, perhaps, the showcase could have artists ordered to some extent by who's released what most recently.

[Webmaster Gabe]

Jul 12, 2008 2:13:29 GMT -5 Evan Joseph-Pinero said:

I think, when the time comes, an archive artists page would be amazing.

There are definite plans to put up an archive section. It will include all artists that have ever been on CrunchyCo.

Jul 12, 2008 13:53:53 GMT -5 Evan Joseph-Pinero said:

I think, perhaps, the showcase could have artists ordered to some extent by who's released what most recently.

Yes, that will be a factor. For instance, if The Get comes out with a CD release it will increase the likelihood that they will appear on the front page, but that alone won't do it. It would have to be in combination with other aspects involving their activity status and public standing.

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And yes, Aaron, I understand why you say it is not necessary to include the word "valued", because that really should be a given. I just put it in initially to make it clear that the bands on the second page are no less valued than the ones on the first. It does not really make a difference to me whether or not we include that word. Does anyone else have any opinions on that?

[Fighter X]

Valued shouldn't be in that sentence. It's almost as degrading as an artist even being on that second page ;D

[beb]

so you admit it is degrading for an artist to only be on the second page? cuz i agree.

[Aaron Campion]

i dont really look at it as being degrading. My project QWERTY that i have been working very hard on over the last 9 months is on that page, and it is very inspirational that if we work really hard, show a great improvement in popularity and really start bringing lots of people and getting attention and recognition, we can someday earn the privilege to be on the main showcase page

overcompensating and using "valued artists" to describe the section does make it seem more degrading though

[beepbeepelizabot]

"If I am wrong about this, Lizzy and Coltan please redeem yourselves and explain, for example, why Coltan who states that he hates anything metal and dislikes distorted guitar could enjoy Smugg and Hypo, two bands who both have ear piercing screaming vocals and loud distorted guitars."

REDEEEM ourselves? we shouldn't have even been put in a position from which we must REDEEM ourselves for voicing our opinions.

so my opinion is less valuable because i don't play music, aaron? or, according to you, because i don't listen to hardcore punk? and i'm pretty sure, i was listening to hardcore punk before you were! (the chronological order of our hearing a certain genre is completely beside the point, but the fact is: yes aaron, i know what hardcore punk is, and i enjoy a great deal of it -- e.g., minor threat, the adolescents, suicidal tendencies, dead kennedys, black flag, ETC.!--edit:i guess when i refer to hardcore punk i go back to the roots of it, but i think the rest of you are thinking of the newer, screamier stuff? but whatever.) gawd i hate it when people require that you PROVE yourself WORTHY of having an opinion. it's pretentious bullcrap that i thought i left behind in HIGH SCHOOL. also, i never countered your repetitive input that everyone's hypocrite has hardcore elements -- i actually think they sound A LOT like minor threat. a lot. but i just thought that it didn't really have a place in the discussion in the FIRST place, so i didn't bother arguing with you. because that is an endless and pointless battle.

i was trying to contribute to the meeting by voicing my opinions? something i don't usually feel comfortable doing like that (usually, i just sit silently and listen :/) , but i did it anyway, only to be told that my opinions are invalid because i don't play music or listen to grindcore? hmm... i don't know if i'll want to go to any more crunchyco staff meetings if my opinions will just be disregarded for such strange reasons.

also, music shouldn't be judged in such black-and-white terms. just because a person isn't familiar with a particular GENRE, doesn't mean they can't truly value a piece of music that happened to be CATEGORIZED by a fallible human as being a part of that genre. what you are saying about people being biased for liking one band of a certain genre and not the rest, is completely invalid! each band is different. i like the dead milkmen -- but i don't like any other silly comedy/punk bands. does that mean i don't TRULY like the dead milkmen?? (and please don't bother yourself picking apart my example -- it's just an example!!) i never brought up digging smug during the meeting, because i don't especially like them, but they are made bearable only by the lovely beeping sounds between the screams.

let's take the examples out of music for a second, because you seem SO convinced that i know nothing about music. (but really, do you know anything about me and my personal likes and dislikes? so how can you make that judgement?) let's say, i like a certain artist who does watercolor paintings, but i've never seen any other watercolor paintings besides theirs... does that render me incapable of fully appreciating that one particular artist's work?? because that is what you are suggesting when you say that coltan and i cannot judge music if we don't listen to other music from that man-made, comPLETELY unecessary genre.

art is art, and that's all there is to it.

i don't judge music based on all the other similar music around it. i judge it, in and of itself. nothing else. because anything else is unnecessary.

[Aaron Campion]

oops, ive deleted my last short post because i had so little time to post i didnt really realize how mean it came across toward lizzy personally. i understand that you are very sensitive and of course are going to get offended when someone says that your opinion is less worthwhile then others. but its really a very simple concept and should not really be taken very personally. its like, i do not know very much about water painting, i have had little hands on experience with water painting. if i had more experience with water painting, i think that i would have much more appreciation for it, have a stronger basis for comparison, and also have a much more valid opinion on the subject. i can be honest and say as of now, my opinion on water paintings are pretty worthless because i am pretty ignorant on the subject. Just like you will never fully understand the chiptune artists unless you sit down with LSDJ. Furthermore, i also personally do not like Chinese food. so should i go off and review a local Chinese restaurant? My opinion would most certainly be biased and i would have preconceived notions on the subject. From what you say is that i should still be able to value this genre, or type of food right?

Youve made my point pretty clear by admitting to enjoy punk rock but not so much grindcore, and have hardly a clue about chiptune, and so on. So of course, at a meeting your opinion discussing the crunchyco artists is going to be biased, and overly slanted toward the one band you to enjoy, everyone hypocrite. In my other post, i dont really think i was so much saying that you dont listen to punk, i am mainly confused about my cousin, who has stated that weezer's guitar is too distorted for him to handle for gods sake! Im pretty sure my examples were about him

But yeah, im not saying you should always be silent, but when it comes to having a heated debate about the music section, you and coltan being silent would have made things go a lot smoother. To be fair, Nick Walthew is pretty biased because he doesnt really care for non-electronic music, so his opinions are going to be slanted toward the chiptune artists. Me, gabe, and brandon are basically the only staff members that fully appreciate and enjoy every genre crunchyco has to offer, and have completely biased free opinions, except for that brandon is in two of the bands, so this whole thing should in the future just continue to stay between me and gabe. i could go on, but gabe is kicking me off! this essay of mine will have to be cut short!!

[Webmaster Gabe]

haha man, people like to write essays on this forum don't they?
I don't really have anything to say on this one. Just play nice everyone.

[circles]

I'm extremely tempted to go on a correcting spree about punk rock here, but I don't want to make any enemies by being a pretentious jackass about it. There is one thing though that I just can't resist. No offense meant by it Aaron, buuuuut:

Jul 12, 2008 10:32:16 GMT -5 Aaron Campion said:

the most simplistic guitar, drums, vocals, and overall basic song structure of all time; even more so than Blink 182 in my opinion.

I DARE you to TRY and drum like The drummer from Blink 182. The Basslines are the only relatively simple thing in blink 182 (with the exception of Carousel). Even the songs that are mainly power chords are typically played so fast (and even faster live) that it gets difficult to have the stamina to even keep up the whole song. There's virtually NOTHING simplistic about blink 182.

BUT to the situation at hand-I still don't understand why you can;t just put the "other artists in their own section below the showcase instead of making a link to another page. It's not very noticable, not for any particular reason other than maybe people dont like clicking on tons of links. Hell, I didn't see it when I first looked at the new site, so I just thought I didn't even have a page! And I'll admit I was a little steamed at the thought, considering not only did I do everything required to get my page up, but I feel like I do a lot of work, both for CrunchyCo. and in general, and probably attract at least a small amount of fans (as evident by the fact that my records do sell once in a blue moon).

But it's not my website. All I'm saying is its hard to put effort into promoting CrunchyCo. when I feel like I have less status on the site than people who don't even live in this country.

[beepbeepelizabot]

i think just mentioning the fact that you would like to go on a correcting spree with the punk rock is pretentious enough as it is, haha.

but, do it!